The new Fadal's come with a Fanuc control and Fanuc motors!!

One mold made the same time on a Kitamura and a Fadal took the same amount of time and measured out the same!! Price difference...about $110K


Awesome!!

WOW

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/bulltear/FadaLl4020Fanuc002.jpg

That is debatable!

Why did Fadal have to give up "the one thing that they developed" to actually compete with the Fanuc controlled CNC machines out there?

Why did the Fanuc control have to be chosen, in order to get back on "the top of your list"?

Is a low purchase price the most important factor to get "on top"?

Do you have one of these Fadal CNC machines with a Fanuc control?

Well we all know why they had to switch controllers...the latest controller was horrid and had tons of revisions and was rushed out the door. The story goes like this.

Fadal was having MAJOR headaches with their controller and asked Fanuc to bail them out. Fanuc sent a team of their best to California to help setup the controller. Fadal also (I cant tell when) switched to the japanese tool chager and changes tools just like the high buck competitors. Their controller couldnt compete so they joined them.....LOL.

Off topic the funniest thing I heard over the Fadal Haas debate was Fadals are made on Fadals and Hass's are made on mori's..... :rolleyes:

I am not affiliated with Fadal at all....just a very happy customer

I am not affiliated with Fadal at all....just a very happy customer

Do you have a new Fadal?
Which control?

4020 FANUC!!!! All FANUC!!!!

Fadals make great boat anchors. I would put my Haas against one any day.

Haas has a nice control but it cant compare to the new versions of fanuc...

I would love to hear how your Haas would eat any fadal... thats not a very intelligent statement. ....almost matches my Fadal is back on top statement :D . I would be willing to bet that in two years the Fadal lineup will be more popular than the Haas. Most salesmen of the high end machines will call the Fadal and Haas the "throw away" machine center even though they make up 85% of the market. The big difference now between higher end japanese VMC's and Fadals are

1. american castings
2. coolant and oiling systems


Thats it now that they use the ultra quick japanese rotary style tool changers and the fanuc motors and controllers. In the realm of medium duty machining its hard to beat the japanese company fanuc for their motors and controller systems...in fact I dont think anyone has come close except Mazak

...in fact I dont think anyone has come close except Mazak

Mazak is/was mainly Mitsubishi, with The odd Fanuc.
Al.

You mean the mazatrol....I think that is the closest competitor for the fanuc. I have seen some good conversational and some horrid conversational controls

You mean the mazatrol....I think that is the closest competitor for the fanuc

Mazatrol is the brand name for Mazak controllers. Components are Mitsubishi. Al is correct. :D

Hello guys,
I can't help but want to get in on this debate.
I am at a interesting position at my job. I am in charge of 3 machines. A Mazak FJV , A Fadal, and a Mori Seiki. I have also spent consideable time on a haas. Each machine has it's good and bad. The haas is a good all around light machining center. The Fadal has one of the easier controls I have used. But it like the haas, has to little a*s behind it and the tool changers are painfully slow, especially the Fadal. Our Mazak's control is pretty easy, and the one thing no other machine tool can touch, is the PROBE. You can just about throw your indicator away. I guess it's not fair to put the Mori in this debate, the Fanuc controll is relitivly easy. It has a learning cure, but not to much. But if you need your machine to squat and take a cut, with a chip to chip tool change time as fast as lightning, you can't beat the Mori.

Dalen

Soo true on the mori....now that fadal has the mori style tool changer and the fanuc it is pretty bad ass... They needed to get away from that carousel :D

i never belived in a ghost in the machine but after spending 6 months with a fadal 104d control , i have seen the light let me tell you.

could be an awesome control, so close and yet so far away. WAY!! to many bugs , i think i could hack a better control together with an abacus.


anyway we told fadal to come get there machine and replace it with a brand new machine with a different control or give it to us for free and pay us to beta test there control ,

they chose to replace it,go figure.

i give them credit for eating that one.

I just really find it hard to believe that control ever left there plant, kinda makes me worried about whats going on out there.

When you say better what do you mean?

Better can mean any one of several things. There is always better machinery out there no matter what you have. You can buy one off custom machinery to beat a Yassada, mori anything. BUT it cost MONEY.

In my book value is what I judge things buy. what can you build for your money spent on machinery?

I would rather sell alot for a little than a little for alot.

All the guys who get rich in the machining buisness that I know. have 20 year old machines (junk) on their floor cranking out parts.
granted they are cheap parts but part never the less.

so lets compare apples to apples. who has 85% of the market??? HMMM..... must be something there... and you can say anything you like about throw away but I know at least 10 companies that are local the make aerospace, helicopter, and medical parts all very tight tolerence and they all have those cheap throw away machines.....

So coming from a pretty succesful buisness OWNER ya its nice to have those *****en high end chip eating metal monster Cadillac style machines but lets be real and make some money and buy the one that fits the job.

BTW the most popular machine in any field is usually not the top of the line. but They usually dont get to be popular because they are "cheap throw away machines". And when was the last time the Sales guys knew anything other than how to get you to buy the machine. How many of those sales guys do you think actually did thier time in this industry. And How much more commision do you think they make on those high end machines.. (not the fadlals). Besides you think the fadals will stick with the fanuc control? or is it a short term fix to pull their a$$ out of the fire from the 104d control? (BTW I like fadals, its what i learned on) :D

Fadals make great boat anchors. I would put my Haas against one any day.
We have both Fadals and Hass. They both work great for us, but I would rather do maintenance on a Fadal any day. I am the 3rd shift Maintenance Tech. I hate the Haas's when it comes to doing anything to them.
Larry

Here is where your Fadal Control should be!

Off,

I ust have a subscription to all my posts...I have to change that. Scott what the heck are you talking about?

Included a pic of the CNC88 control removed...

What is that PC in this Fadal Control Panel?

You guessed it! It's a PC, ya baby, and this CNC now makes motion faster and more accurately than I have ever seen any machine do. On Fadal iron? Yep, old school tool changer, had to add a skirt around that carrosel though to protect tapers from chips and coolant.

Would you believe F500. (Five Hundred) inches per minute and features that are machined at this feed are within .002
How can that be? Acceleration and deceleration and servo control...

Amazed,

How would you like to test that Fanuc controlled Fadal?
http://www.cnczone.com/modules.php?name=Downloads&file=viewfile&id=53

anyone that is defending the 104d control either 1 is trying to sell one or b , has never machined a part on the machine


I have 3 olther fadals with the 88 control. they make the same parts as the 180K micron high speed machining center we have . im all about value and fadal has that, do you really need a colored screen to make parts...no a fancy touchpad, those do not add value

they just made a mistake with the 104d

Scott that is cool....can tehballscrews handle it?


yeah 104 sucked...I think the fanuc will be a hit with fadal


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y29/bulltear/FadaLl4020Fanuc002.jpg

anyone that is defending the 104d control either 1 is trying to sell one or b , has never machined a part on the machine...

they just made a mistake with the 104d

What do you mean by Fadal made a mistake?
I noticed you said "or b , has never machined a part on the machine..."
Do you, or did you have a Fadal with a 104D control?

(Seems like there are a lot of guys here fit that "did have" category)

Sincerely,

[QUOTE=carbidecraters]can the ballscrews handle it?[QUOTE=carbidecraters]

The Rapid traverse rate of the 4020 we retro'd is 700 ipm.
This has not been changed by the retro. The max feed rate of the Fadal cnc88 control was 250 ipm but, we could not feed accurately (within .002) on any radius at feeds over 30 ipm. Accuracy (within .010) feed no faster than 100 ipm.

On the Numeryx or Rubicon PC based retrofit, we are able to hold accuracy (within .002) at feeds over 200 ipm. In fact, even at feed rates of 500 ipm accuracy is still within .005
You may not believe me, but it's true. On this 90's vintage Fadal CNC with 15k spindle, DC servo motors, stock liquid cooled ball screws, and 2 pallet changer we are machining faster than many very expensive VMC and some HMC's...

Surface finish is now our limitation. For finishing we can go no faster than "programmed" F220 and get a RMS 100 or better (measured by a profilometer), using 3 fluted end mills. I suppose we could try finishing with a 4 flute in our aluminum parts and go to "programmed" F290. I can't even imagine getting our machinists to accept using a 4 fluted end mill in aluminum, considering what a difficult time it was, getting them to accept 3 flutes.
Of course good flood coolant is essential to getting those chips outa the way.
You may have noticed above "programmed" feed rates. Intentenally I said this because, with this control you can set the feed rate at your chosen tools maximum high feed rate, and as long as you are using a good RPM, and part clamping is not an issue, and the flood coolant is flushing well, you can just rest assured the features are going to be on size. Of course depth of cut has to be reasonable and tool extension as well (always shorter = best)...
And contrary to some peoples accusation here on the zone, I do believe there is significant value in determining an optimum RPM and depth of cut, using the latest impact testing technologies...

I just happen to believe that 1st things, 1st. We must address the serious causes of poor machining performance.
Stage 1 = CNC Control
http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=3363

What do you say to testing your BPT on that Fanuc controled Fadal?

Sincerely,

What do you mean by Fadal made a mistake?
I noticed you said "or b , has never machined a part on the machine..."
Do you, or did you have a Fadal with a 104D control?

(Seems like there are a lot of guys here fit that "did have" category)

Sincerely,

Im a DID HAVE,


that control should have never left there plant

i have 6 fadals 5 haas and 1 fanuc robo drill. oh ya had one of those 104d boat anchors. by far the haas is the fastest and anyone can run them. my shop is right next door to a fadal dealer. a fadal will never come close to a haas ss tool changer speed.

guess you missed the picture on the first page

hows that chip convayer working on that fadal

In my opinion Fadal had to do something or close shop. I have been to the factory twice for service training- last time in 99 and they were making parts on old equipment-various manufacturers and scabing their 88hs control onto them.
At one point Thyssen tryed to sell the company but there were no takers- so the story goes.
Fadal software always had buggs in it; when they came out with system 99 it hit revision 12 or so before it was satisfactory for most applications if I remember correctly.

just got it wed 6-29-05

no machine operation manual(not written yet). only control manual on CD.
that means no list of M codes etc.. (chip conveyor needs M code to run, wont start w/just the on/off switch))

no separate rapid feedrate - program feedrate pot (0-25-50-100). when feedrate is at 100%
the rapid is at 100% also (700 ipm). they share the same pot.

no tool release button on remote or on spindle cover.(long stretch).

rs-232 port is an option. got the 512mb flash memory that plugs in next to the LCD screen (it is being shipped Tues 7-5).

it has an ethernet port.been reading inst. on how to config (fun to read off of a CD).

not sure yet when applications guy will show to give me a quick overview of machine operation.

other than that its seems ok.

today is wed 7-6. still no memory and no applications guy in the near future.
seems no one at fadal knows about this new boat anchor.

...And when was the last time the Sales guys knew anything other than how to get you to buy the machine. How many of those sales guys do you think actually did thier time in this industry. And How much more commision do you think they make on those high end machines.. (not the fadlals). Besides you think the fadals will stick with the fanuc control? or is it a short term fix to pull their a$$ out of the fire from the 104d control? (BTW I like fadals, its what i learned on) :D

some sales guys like myself (Used Machines only) have our own opinions based on what we hear from the end user. It comes down to preference. I will say i know more customers that have 20 year old Mori's still running as tightly as they were the day they bought 'em. Don't get me wrong i think all the machines mentioned here are great machines depending on the application. My only preference; late model used over new.

Awe c'mon people, Haas aren't as bad as you all think. The high performance like the VF4 is incredibly fast on tool changing and rapid movement. And the features are great and easy to use. It's got a bunch of workset numbers. You can almost find a button for anything u want to do with the machine. The only one bad thing about this machine that I can think of is that if you want to locate a program from the program list, you have to scroll down to find it. It won't allow it if you type in a program number and cursor down, I hate that! Fadal is not that bad either.

No offense, but the guy whos says that a fadal is not that bad is just plain ignorant.
Ignorance is not bad, it's just a matter of experience. I love my kids, but I know they are ignorant, they are just kids. They don't know any better...
In the mfg buisness, you've got your A Class, B Class, C Class and so on down the line...

You better believe that the guy who buys an A Class piece of equipment expects to get "A Class" performance out of his "A Class" investment. Its called Return On Investment (ROI), if he is not, then he got less than he bargained for.
It's the same on the race track, the more money you spend, the better performance you end up with. Or else you did not do your research well enough. It is the most important thing, to determine your value to investment justification. If you are competing at the grand prix level with the big boys like Ferrari and McKlarren, then you just cannot show up in a mustang with it does not matter what size engine you put in it, you cannot compete. And if you did try, No one else would compare the performance of that Mustang to the Ferrari and say, it's not that bad...

This is why careful attention must be paid to what is needed to do the job with the least possible investment. No Mustang belongs on the same track as a Ferrari, but vis/versa, no Ferrari belongs on the same track as a Mustang, specially if everyone competing is driving Detroit iron.

We cannot all afford the high end equipment, but we don't need to, cause our competition isen't using the high end equipment yet. When they do, and they have lower overhead rates, then I am out of this buisness. I think I better invest in upgrading while I can, or else be passed by the competition.

What do you think,

So you havent explained or given a opinion on the fadal you have just called people ignorant for believing these are good machines. Nice post there Zaxxon

Awe c'mon people, Haas aren't as bad as you all think. The high performance like the VF4 is incredibly fast on tool changing and rapid movement. And the features are great and easy to use. It's got a bunch of workset numbers. You can almost find a button for anything u want to do with the machine. The only one bad thing about this machine that I can think of is that if you want to locate a program from the program list, you have to scroll down to find it. It won't allow it if you type in a program number and cursor down, I hate that! Fadal is not that bad either.


LOL on the scroll down to find your program as being a bad thing. Yeah Haas has some nice options are have decent speed

O, Yea, Well my "Schutte WU305" has a Renishaw Probe, is 5-axis, runs Windows NT with Siemens 840D, holds 4 wheelpacks with 4 wheels on each pack, can do a wheel change in under 10 sec., has a 15,000 RPM Spindle, etc,etc,etc.

Sorry, I just love when everyone goes on about who has the best machine, hey I had to add mine to the list :)

http://www.schuttetgm.com/305.htm

O, Yea, Well my "Schutte WU305" has a Renishaw Probe, is 5-axis, runs Windows NT with Siemens 840D, holds 4 wheelpacks with 4 wheels on each pack, can do a wheel change in under 10 sec., has a 15,000 RPM Spindle, etc,etc,etc.

Sorry, I just love when everyone goes on about who has the best machine, hey I had to add mine to the list :)

http://www.schuttetgm.com/305.htm

Ha shoot......thats nothing.... I have a 8" bastard with a 2" radius on one side. I will widdle my own machine :)

Here is where your Fadal Control should be!

Off,I'll take it!

Our new Mori Seiki is on the floor. What a beautiful piece of workmanship!
At twice the price of a new Fadal, of course it'll have to perform better, be more accurate and more reliable too. That's why we up'd our game. Looking forward to seeing the difference in performance.

I'll keep you posted,

This new Mori Seiki is awsome!
It is really not fair to compare a Fadal (no matter what control it has) to a Mori Seiki.
This one is 15,000 lbs, plus the Mori factory integrated 2 Pallet Changer, Fanuc 18i Control, 1,650 Rapid / Feed Rates, 20,000 RPM.

Wow, it is fast!

that is a sweet machine. I would love having one of those. How much would a non pallet machine cost. Just a ballpark figure (just curious). I just opened my own shop and would love to step up and run with the big boys and a machine like that would be a very good start. Using mastercam I think I could really make some nice parts.

rickyt,

With the 20k spindle and AI Nano Fanuc HSM option it will be close to 200k...
Definetly a fair piece of change. But when you justify based on 50% less cycle time "average" compared to a low cost option like a Fadal, you have to consider the other benefits such as quality and reliability too.

How long would it take to get payback on the price difference between a new Fadal and a Mori? Why not put your experience and cost accounting thru a test run? You tell me how long based on your hourly rate and number of shifts...
Just make this assumption, your cycle time will be 1/2 of say a Fadal, better quality by the way. Let's see how you do on this kind of equipment justification!

Included here are a couple of theoretical Excel spread sheets:

if fadal built a 20 000 rpm spindle that would mean i can burn out a spindle twice as fast

Has any one ever crashed a machine pressing the feedhold button. If you toggle the feed hold and cycle start button the machine will continue to move while the feed hold is still pressed. You must let off the feed hold and press it again to stop the machine.

I use the jog button on the keyboard all the time. Just hold it to clean up material. Never had any issues

'99 vintage 4020 reman here.....LOVE IT!!
Sure, it's not the fastest iron on the block, but after 3 years, I'd buy it again in a heart beat.

Not sure why you'd toggle the feed hold/cycle start buttons....you can handwheel-through a lot easier. For a lot of simple jobs I'll MDI a G0 G90 X0 Y0 E1, then Tn M6, Hn Dn Z1. and go into jog. Voila! A fly-by-wire milling machine with DRO!

Have to say that S-B's cost argument is good, but for one variable....not everyone has the available funding to explore high-end. We didn't. Had to choose the best bang for the buck, and quickly, with the knowledge that we'd have to live eternally with our purchase.

Ended up with the 4020, and a Mazak SQT250M w/Mazalarm 640T. (I have a love/hate relationship with that machine...but it holds within tenths all day long and changes in programs are too easy...) Love both of these machines, and would buy 'em again.

fizzissist,

Does anyone pay cash all up front?
I suppose if someone did not want to have a monthly expense that is tax deductible, they could do that...
Just remember that all time in the cut is what you sell to your customers, and the less time you spend "there" the lower your costs...

Our current cycle time reduction is an average of 95% and are making more accurate parts... IOW at 100% improved cycle time, we would be making parts in 1/2 the time (average)... Some of our processes are running 200% faster...

No doubt we will be there soon; we are going for new shrink fit holders next...

Then we can upgrade to some high end cutting tools too... Should be awesome!

"Commitment is what separates excellence from mediocrity"

Didn't mean to suggest paying cash....some of us don't have sufficient credit to buy the Ferrari's ...or in our case, "Here's some money, spend it wisely."

Can't tell you how envious we are of you guys who get to make money with your machines, so the really good tooling is justified...or affordable.

dang, every ones bashing fadal, well keep going so it drive the resell down even more!!! im just a hobbiest and boght a 4020 off ebay for 6k ya it was made in 89 but works freaking great mabe the old ones are better?? anyway so what if it takes 5-10 sec for a tool change if 10 sec is going to hurt your productivity that much then its time to buy another fadal and run 2 of them!!! and stop *****ing

dang, every ones bashing fadal, well keep going so it drive the resell down even more!!!

IMO, Fadal has done "that" all by themselves! I'm just glad we have this site (and others) to use for information and networking...

Thanks CNCZone,