Interest in Lathe retrofit

[NC Cams]

I have several Fanuc 5T powered lathes. Illness and fatigue has set in (I'm sick n tired of dealing with 25+ year old flakey electronics).

Interested in hearing from ANYONE who's either done their own retrofit of a Fanuc 5T or a decent size LATHE with the Ajax system. The Ajax site seems to have a lot of mill type applications and customer testimonials but not so much on lathes.

Most certainly the factory will vouch for it's performance - I'm looking for first hand experience. You know, real life unbiased stuff like:

support issues, ease of use, quirks, service, praises, rants, satisfaction, regrets, whatever.....

The wiring issue doesn't bother me as I've already redone that due to having to fix up hacked up 5T wiring butchered up by the former owner.

[Shizzlemah]

I used a centroid retrofit pacakge and wasn't impressed. It is a milling controller and I found a lot of the turning functions were cobbled together.

Cutter comp is hokey- hope you like programming to the center of your insert radius. Doesn't support a barfeed - no interlock logic, etc. Be prepared to launch a few bars through the backside of the machine...

Especially considering the fact that it was a 'package' led me to believe they had built one or two before and tried them out. Clearly not the case. They would not supply me with params for the application (package,mind you!) and there was some trail and error. For nearly a year the X jog buttons on the pendant worked the wrong way. The X+ button moved X- and vice versa. It took nearly a year to get them to BELIEVE that was really happening. They also stiffed me on some options and it was a waste of $15k. Glad I only did one machine as a tester.

In all honesty this was a centroid pacakge. But if you can get the same thing from ajax, just save the money and instead go for a nice, sharp stick in the eye.

Originally Posted by NC Cams I have several Fanuc 5T powered lathes. Illness and fatigue has set in (I'm sick n tired of dealing with 25+ year old flakey electronics). Interested in hearing from ANYONE who's either done their own retrofit of a Fanuc 5T or a decent size LATHE with the Ajax system. The Ajax site seems to have a lot of mill type applications and customer testimonials but not so much on lathes. Most certainly the factory will vouch for it's performance - I'm looking for first hand experience. You know, real life unbiased stuff like: support issues, ease of use, quirks, service, praises, rants, satisfaction, regrets, whatever..... The wiring issue doesn't bother me as I've already redone that due to having to fix up hacked up 5T wiring butchered up by the former owner.

[NC Cams]

Thank you EVER SO MUCH FOR THE REPLY!!!!! Hmmmm. I wonder if anybody from Ajax is still visiting the site and has a response???

I saw a similiar post dealing with Camsoft in that they (meaning the vendor of the package) had "issues" with the lathe package which seemed to remain unsolved and/or the installer was unsatisfied.

Not being software literate and merely interested in installing an updated controller and making parts (instead of messing with software glitches ad nauseum), it looks more and more like the performance of "high end" lathe side CNC retrofits leaves a lot to be desired. I realize that NC lathes are a smaller part of the business as opposed to NC mills BUT if you're selling it that way, the darn package had better perform.

Interestingly, I have since the original post, contacted Ajax. Even though they indicate having done "Fanuc retrofits", it rapidly turned into "your stuff won't work, blah blah, buy our new servos".

Having worked with DC servo's and PWM servo controls for some time, I failed to see how MY 90 volt DC like new servo motors WITH a 2000ppr encoder (not resolver) and 12 amp draw wouldn't work with their 140 volt, 15 amp servo amp that, too accepted a comparable encoder input.... Moreover, I'm STILL waiting for their rep to call and for the Ajax side to send me the information they promised.

Before I dump that kind of money on a new system that clearly seems to offer bull instead of service/support, I'll spend the time to dink with my Fanuc stuff some more.

Dealing with old connnections in a lathe controller that DOES work (when the electrons don't get lost) is surely better than dealing with an all new system that is poorly supported and improperly/inadequately developed. Maybe it is true, they don't build 'em like they used to.....

Has anyone HAD luck with a servo based, non-LPT port CNC lathe retrofit that WORKS and works like it is supposed to?????????

[Shizzlemah]

I posted a threading Q months ago here and nobody has even posted a reply. It was another case of the cycle not working like it is supposed to.

I was unable to program finish & spring passes and leadout on a thread cycle. The only way was to set the machine parameters. Works okay, until the next part needs a different setting... No spindle load meter. No realtime display of following error. The spindle drive they supplied is SO wimpy that CSS is useless.

Have you looked into a fanuc retrofit? There are some decent shops around and they are very well supported. I got a quote of $22k for my machine - that was new spindle&servo drives and all. I elected the centroid because lead time was 2 week versus 6 months for the fanuc retrofitter.

[Al_The_Man]

From one of the people here that does RetroFits for a living here are a few points:
If the machine does not have usable motors and drives then it is definately worth going to one of the large companies, personally I prefer Mitsubishi over Fanuc, not necessarily because of the product (although it is comparable), because Mitsubishi are easier to deal with and phone support is really fast.
I have done Fanuc, Mitsubishi, Camsoft, plus many in-house designed stand-alone systems based around Acroloop and Galil.
For anyone considering using a package they have not used before, or have not done a retofit before, believe me, there is no quick way, there is going to be a learning curve, Most of this will be doing the machine interface, PLC/PMC R,S,T,M codes and tool changers etc.
The upside of using a complete package is that the CNC G codes & Canned cycles, etc, are already written, the motors and drives match the system and integration is minimal. This equates to Less time taken for the retro.
There are good systems like Fagor, which I believe still have the option of using your own drives, they are also a good company.
Mainly like anything else with CNC, you get what you pay for.
My 2¢.
Al.

[NC Cams]

Al:

I have 3 fully functional Fanuc 5T's. The ONLY reason I want to update is because of the flakey wiring that is 30 years old. Latent corrosion and loose connectors results in something NOT going ready every so often. Simple case of illness and fatigue (I'm sick and tired of dealing with flakey old TTL level controls that have to be sent halfway across the country for affordable but good service or troubleshooting a loose wire burried someplace).

I simply can't afford to have a turn key retrofitter do the work due to the shape/performance of my current business model. I simply figured that in lieu of the explosive growth of DIY cnc, a PC based system would be bolt-on able. Sadly that doesn't seem to be the case.

In my case, I have a fully built/developed and engineered CNC with encoders, spindle drive, everything - only tired/dated electronics. Technically I have identified and can access EVERY single signal that a controller needs to run in full CNC mode - the darn lathes already do it only with 30 year old controllers. You'd think that one could remove the old control, rehook the appropriate signals/power lines and refire the thing after some minor tweaking.

I have 2 axis worth of properly sized and functional DC servos (Model 0, 90vdc, 12 amp) with 2000 count encoders and matched power transformers - nothing wierd or trick as current technology goes. I have a 10hp DC spindle drive that only needs 0-10v speed and proper relay applied logic (proper M code to trigger existing relay bands) for direction to make it run. Nothing at all trick or special. I can make it run manually with jumper wires.

Yet, when I talk to these "bolt in DIY retrofitters" who claim to offer complete canned cycles for Hardinge and Fanuc lathes, I get:

"...your servos won't work...you need ours...",
"... you'll have to write software...." (what am I paying you for???) and
"...your motor and servo are special matched won't work with our servo amps" (having reverse engineered several servo amps and studied the DC drives till I'm blue in the face, I know such statements are categorically B/S - when you get obvious B/S fed to you, would YOU trust the vendor????).

Maybe a purchasing agent will buy that line but a degreed engineer who knows about mechanical and electical interfacing isn't going to buy such B/S.

Then I get/see comments about these "lathe retrofits" as being nothing more than mill controls that are fitted to lathes but that is NOT quite what goes on (Thanks to those who responded - I really appreciate your candor!!!).

Several members reported that service support for simple stuff was poor or non-existant. Threading doesn't work, jogs are backwards, months of e-mail exchanges with tech depts that are exercises in futility, etc. Hmmm. Really makes you want to do business with them?!?!?!

Heck, I even had the high end MDSI guys in (they are based in my town) and the first words out of their mouth is "you'll have to write software" - spend $3K plus for their box and their "software" and then you have to write more. Sorry, no. I make cams, YOU make software and if you've done it before, it shouldn't have to be done from scratch as if this was the first time you ever saw a CNC lathe.

The reason why Microsoft got SO big was that (even as bad as they are), their software AT LEAST did the basics and did it well enough to satisfy the 90 percentile of the market when the average guy who threw it at his machine. How difficult can that be to an experienced programmer who supposedly has done it before with other comparable retrofits?????

I'd contend that the CNC guys who sell DIY retrofit kits would do as well as Bill Gates and Co. when/if they made software/kits that did simple turning, spacing and threading (while looking for limits and home switches) which is ALL I'm looking to do.

Haven't found any that fit that description yet and there doesn't seem to be any affordable candidates emerging... Looks like its time to go back to romancing the Fanucs some more.

[Shizzlemah]

Have you looked at a PC based control? You have the performance,functions,IO mapped out well enough. Perhaps Mach2/3 supports the Galil driver board which will handle driving voltage/position servos (not the step/direction used in the hobby&home market)

I did a PC retrofit before the centroid. Figuring I'd get the performance without spending the time... ugh.

[Al_The_Man]

Originally Posted by Shizzlemah Perhaps Mach2/3 supports the Galil driver board which will handle driving voltage/position servos (not the step/direction used in the hobby&home market)

Oh, I so wish they did, right now I cannot sell my customers a through-the-parallel-port system.

Originally Posted by NC_Cams Heck, I even had the high end MDSI guys in (they are based in my town) and the first words out of their mouth is "you'll have to write software" - spend $3K plus for their box and their "software" and then you have to write more. Sorry, no. I make cams, YOU make software and if you've done it before, it shouldn't have to be done from scratch as if this was the first time you ever saw a CNC lathe

This is what I was trying to explain, even the highest end systems manuf., let alone the DIY cannot sell you an off-the shelf-package.
The reason is due to the unique-ness of every machine.
The CNC control side CAN be pre-written, but the machine interface that involves all the S,M codes is different for every make of machine.
The 'PLC' side of the machine has always had to be written by someone, either by yourself or you pay someone (retrofitter etc) to do it.
In some cases they can supply a 'Generic' case that can be used and adapted.
But I don't see any way around it, Unless you can find someone who has done EXACTLY the same machine that you have and is willing to part with the Data.
The bottom line problem is, the suppliers of systems do not have a product that can be used to drop directly into every one of thousands of different machines that are out there without some sort of adaption.
And then there is the re-wiring...
Al.

[NC Cams]

Re: S & M code writing (sounds kinky).

The 5T (I'm told) was a fairly simple and basic control in its day. It has 3 I-O sections. All I-O's are merely NO/NC relays (output) or the input to a relay coil which interfaces internally to the TTL NC.

One section takes all the limit, jog, e-stop and other input controls. Pretty simple to interface as the lathe builder had to make THEIR wiring work with the Fanuc logic in the Fanuc prescribed manner. So much for code writing.

The "S" function is merely a 10 bit signal fed to a D-A converter. Set the S in G code and the analog signal is fed to a prewired 10h DC spindle motor drive. Again, pursuant to Fanuc software and again using their logic.

Trip the proper M codes ("motor run" in "this direction" outputs via N-O relays on NC) and the spindle drive does the rest as told. Again, from a pre-configured relay logic board. The stop codes (N-C contacts) trip and shut stuff down with e-stop or CNC logic when the proper M codes are set by the Fanuc. Like I said, the whole mess can be made to run with jumper wires - as simple a digital logic as there is.

The servos are pretty much driven and fed back as one would expect using contemporary TTL levels. The NC connects the two and itegrates them to the prefit spindle encoder which has timing signal to do threading.

It would seem that (asside from HOME switch inputs that I found strangely missing on the retro controllers I looked at), wiring connections in the proper sequence would/should interface with properly written fundamental PLC operating "code" and the machine should run.

Tell me what you want in the way of an input signal and I can pretty much "live" with your methodology for turning, spacing and threading.

I think the problem here is that people are looking at this as taking a dumb lathe and "retrofitting" a controller to it with no existing locic. This is/was already done.

The relay/ladder logic is DONE.

The system is already NC controlled and has a fully functionaly albeit alzheimer aflicted (at times) controller. The mere fact the thing runs at its age is probably more than one should expect.

As far as the rewiring, BTDT.

The former owner hacked it up (literally) and ALL the output wiring from the 5T to the spindle drive and servos and "iron" had to be retraced, reconnected and/or redone. Hence, all the M00, M03 etc's and the S's and the limits, etc have already been found and retraced - both logic and wire connections.

Since the original the lathe maker had to wire the machine to fit the Fanuc M and S code logic, that's already figured out and been done. Oh, and I have ALL the factory wiring diagrams and relay logic schematics.

Maybe I'm oversimplifying it and maybe it IS too simple (BTW, one local retrofit engineer admitted my machine was TOO simple - no profit in base machine retros).

I, too, am one of those clients who will not run off the limited I-O's afforded by a parallel port. I also will NOT use a Windows based control system if at all possible - I want simplicity, not DLL madness.

[Shizzlemah]

The I/Os are not a problem. If a parallel port is a turn off due to the limited number of I/O lines, you can easly add aditional ports.

Agreed that windows would NOT be a choice I would make. I havent looked at the EMC control for a while, but its very stable and linux based. Not to be confused with the clowny 'my first linux' offered by centroid, running their dos code (and it hicoughs and burps at differences between CR and LF)

As to the lack of home switches, some retrofits will only use a travel limit switch. They will cruise into the switch at a low speed, then back off until the encoder index pluse triggers. You can software define the coords around that point that triggers.

This system is decent for lathes where you can usually return to X+Z+ safely. No problem parking a lathe at that point. It's slow and awkward on mills to creep to X+Y+Z+. I like to park tables centered and supported, not all the way to the extreme of its travel.


If the ladder logic is done and working - and the servos and drives are happy - why not just bold on a 0T panel and call it a day ?

[NC Cams]

Schizzlemah: your comments re:Centroid is seemingly another of a similiar vein that I got about their system. After talking to their sales guy the other day, i've all but decided NOT to use them.

Between logic that can spit parts out of lathe, X- and X+ directions that don't work and then B/S when it came to interfacing fairly simple DC servos, it has become apparent that I need to look elsewhere's.

Huflungdung reported problems with Camsoft too - software and/or servo amp issues. Turned into classic case where software guy points to amp guy who points to servo guy who points to software guy. Ultimately code had to be written to do simple thread turning that the "lathe code" should EASILY do. I categorically refuse to write bridge code to fix software deficiencies when I buy software - do you have to write code to get Word or Excel or IE to work???.

What categorically amazes me, no STUPEFIES ME, is the fact that Bridgeport created a single BMDC card that ran VMC's, mills and supposedly turning centers.

More stupefying is the fact that it ran off of a comparatively lame 486 ISA buss'd DOS computer IN 1995. Yet, with better and faster computes, the same can't be done today.

Like I said, STUPEFIED.

My Eztrak mill simply works and does so with the ease and grace of what I need my lathes to do. Whomever wrote that code and/or created those cards is sorrily missed in the industry. They are defiinitely laboring at the wrong business (pay attention EMI).

They (you) could be making a comfortable living doing DIY retrofit kits with an elegantly simple system. From what's been reported about Camsoft and Centroid/Ajax, these fine vendors had better hope people as sharp as those who did the BMDC and the Bridgeport code don't resurface with a clean system that uses contemporary code for the hardware available today....

If only SOMEWHERE/SOMEHOW/SOMEONE could create a viable BMDC but contemporary and LEGAL knock-off and offer it anew. For some applications, a classic simple system is all that's needed.

In retrospect, an Ajax system costs $2800 just to start. The BMDC card itself can be bought new for about $1400 (parts total is a tiny fraction of that). Add the AXSBOB and AUXBOB and you add another $50 tops. Add an appropriate servo amp (Gecko, Galil, Rutex, whatever) and you'rr close to Ajax dollar wise.

If I could buy a BMDC based system today, I'd do so in a heartbeat. Why? because it simply worked.... Maybe not good enough for Bridgeport/Hardinge but surely plenly good enough for my simple needs.

It's not only the I-Os limits anymore (even if/when you add more cards), parallel ports don't communicate in real time anymore with XP systems like they did with DOS/Win 9x . The lack of ISA busses keeps some PLC controls (BMDC card for one) from being used anymore. The industries lack of DOS support for PCI buss sort of forces you into the Windows quagmire.

In light of the fact that asside from the old 5T controls that have fully functional ladder burned into proms - all that's needed is/was I's to read and the O's to drive (which are set with a prewired external relay board), I have fully functional and LIKE new 30 y/o lathes (came out of a trade school).

If I knew what an OT panel was or who made it and if they were affordable and retrofitable and user friendly to the DIY'er, I'd consider it. I can afford $2-4K for a retrofit of an otherwise sound CNC lathe. I simply can't afford $10-22K to have an integrator sell me a Centroid or Camsoft 'nightmare'.

Looks like its time to romance the 5T's some more. Perhaps I can forstall/reverse any further alzheimers via TLC of connections and other "tricks" I've learned via my prior resurrection efforts done to-date.

Thanks to all those who responded in P/M and in posts. Your insight was VERY helpful. To those who are looking at doing a CNC lathe, be forewarned, it is a FAR cry from doing a mill, even though it shouldn't be.

[Shizzlemah]

0T panel , as in Fanuc 0T. Possibly the *easiest* to integrate. May need new generation ladder logic- but that's pretty simple as you said the IO is quite basic. Spindle,coolant, probably turret indexing, etc.

Also a Yaskawa control may also interface pretty well. If you get a real lathe controller with an installed base of millions of units, the software issues disappear.

$2-4k seems like a really really tight budget. I doubt there is a commercial solution in that range. Try the Linux / EMC control software for starters, roll your own step/dir hardware (geckos?) and be ready to write a lot of code. It's a solid platform that I run on a mill, but when last I checked it was lacking spindle encoder feedback and lathe cycles. The motion code is pretty solid, and the I/Os are good.