Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection


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Thread: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

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    Default Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Bridgeport/Romi EZ Path Gear head lathe. Is there anyway to setup the Centroid T400 without changing the parameters each time the headstock gear box speed selectors are changed? In other words, Is there a way to tell the Centroid Control that there are multiple speed selections and the users switches speeds on the headstock and just pushes a button on the display telling the control what speed was selected?

    The lathe has a 7.5hp TECO VFD controlled motor, but sometimes its more advantageous to change the gears on the headstock.

    Thanks in advance.
    Marty

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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Parameters 65, 66 and 67 contain the ratios for low, med-low and med range. With an appropriate PLC program, the control will automatically adjust for gear range. If you send a report.zip to support@centroidcnc.com we can determine if your PLC program has support for multiple gear ranges (it likely does). We can also tell you which input to wire the gear range switches into. You can also call us at 814-353-9256 (though at some point we will need the report regardless)

    Regards

    Scott



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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Sorry - missed the button push part. That likely is not in the PLC program but the PLC may very well support mfunctions you could issue in your program to accomplish the same thing. Again a report is needed to confirm PLC features.



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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Quote Originally Posted by ajaxscott View Post
    Parameters 65, 66 and 67 contain the ratios for low, med-low and med range. With an appropriate PLC program, the control will automatically adjust for gear range. If you send a report.zip to support@centroidcnc.com we can determine if your PLC program has support for multiple gear ranges (it likely does). We can also tell you which input to wire the gear range switches into. You can also call us at 814-353-9256 (though at some point we will need the report regardless)

    Regards

    Scott
    Scott, I sincerely appreciate such a prompt reply. The lathe belongs to a friend of mine who owns a shop, they purchased the retrofit from the local dealer, and it was explained to the dealer what the machine was. A gear head Bridgeport Romi EZ Path. The trouble is, they didn't get much support. The machine is up and running, but they say they have to go in and change a parameter every time they shift gears in the headstock. The control has very little run time on it. Since all of their lathes and machining centers are of another control, they have decided not to pursue ironing out this bug and offered to sell it to me. I have done a retrofit on a small machining center and several benchtop cnc mills. I really like the Centroid control, but my concern is how much support will I get not being the original purchaser of the control? I tried to read up on Centroid's support policies and it seems like everything has to go through the local dealer. I'm quite capable. I did find a manual on the PLC that mentioned that it just needs to see inputs and then the control will adjust the VFD within that speed range or know to monitor those speeds. I will have to see if the EZ Path has switches on the gear selectors in order to let the control know what speed range. Where in the parameter file do you set the speed ranges for low, medium low, medium high and high? Do let me know what sort of support I might get. Email responses are just fine. But the current owner said they emailed the factory and got no responses.

    Thanks again Scott, your prompt response leaves me hopeful I might get some support even if here on this forum where others may also benefit.

    Marty
    Mesa, AZ



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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Marty,
    Hello. Centroid has been in business since 1979 and we always support all of our customers and control systems. We are a small family run business located in Central Pennsylvania. We do have a network of certified dealer/installers/tech reps worldwide and we do prefer that you contact your local rep for support first as there are many advantages to having the "local" tech help you out. If there are no local tech reps in your area or if the local tech is not available or can't help you..there is always Centroid factory tech support available thru, phone, email, internet (via teamviewer, skype etc) , the centroid forum on ajaxcnc.com and this forum as well. forum and email support is always free or a quick easy phone call question..no problem. Our team of tech support guys are CNC support Veterans and are located in Pennsylvania their combined experience and knowledge on the Centroid cnc control systems and a wide variety of machine tools is vast, they are experts and you have direct access to them Monday Thru Friday 9-5 EST via phone and internet for them help you work on your machine no matter the age or owner for $90/ hr. Most problems/questions are solved in under an hour. this page outlines the different cnc support available.. CENTROID CNC Service and Technical Support,.
    be sure to always send a "report" file from the cnc control along with your emails or post. the report file contains all the setup information of your particular cnc control in one file so the support guys can see how your particular cnc control is set up and can offer you specific instructions to achieve your goal. (without the report file we have no idea how the system is configured and can give only general advice). generating a report file is simple from the utility menu in the centroid cnc software.. here is a set of instructions on how to do this for all the various centroid software versions over the past 20 years.. http://www.centroidcnc.com/dealersup...ploads/193.pdf



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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Thanks Keith, between your response and Scott's I decided to purchase the lathe. It will be delivered next Friday. Because this gear head lathe has a quite a speed selection and Centroid only supports 4? settings, I am wondering if its better to just have the control turn on/off, and forward/reverse the spindle? (See picture) Your recommendations on how Centroid handles this sort of situation appreciated. I will send the report file once I have the lathe setup. The software currently on the machine is CNC 11 version 3.04 Rev 110520.

    Thanks again.
    Marty

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection-bptezpath-jpg  
    Last edited by Marty_Escarcega; 06-30-2016 at 09:18 AM.


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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Marty,

    The standard PLC supports 4 ranges, but the PLC can be modified to support a virtually unlimited number of gear ranges.

    After you receive the lathe, you will want to upgrade it to v3.06, start it once, and then upgrade it to our current version. (There is a firmware change relating to the boot sequence that requires this one-time) intermediate upgrade for versions prior to 3.06) Do NOT install a PLC program when prompted during the upgrade or it will overwrite your machine configuration files.



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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Quote Originally Posted by ajaxscott View Post
    Marty,

    The standard PLC supports 4 ranges, but the PLC can be modified to support a virtually unlimited number of gear ranges.

    After you receive the lathe, you will want to upgrade it to v3.06, start it once, and then upgrade it to our current version. (There is a firmware change relating to the boot sequence that requires this one-time) intermediate upgrade for versions prior to 3.06) Do NOT install a PLC program when prompted during the upgrade or it will overwrite your machine configuration files.

    I am very pleased with the quick responses from Centroid, I was worried about support.
    Should we start with the report file sent to you then do the software upgrade?
    How do I acquire the upgrade and is there a cost for the maintenance releases?
    Its good to know the PLC may be modified. I am unsure why this wasn't suggested to the original purchaser. Can this done be the installer/user or is this something you would have to do for a fee? (if so approximate cost?) It seems to me the other issue is that the control needs to know the position of the gear selector levers OR there has to be something on the control console display that the user tells the control the speed range of the gear head selector levers. Your general recommendations on the proper way to setup this sort of lathe is appreciated.

    Thank you again Scott, my first interest is CNC controls, and while I have some experience with Flashcut CNC and Mach 3, this is my first encounter with Centroid Controls. I have an Emcoturn 240 with turrent tool changer I was going to do with Flashcut CNC, I may change my mind. :-)
    Marty



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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Marty,

    Updates are available via download and there are no fees unless you chooses to have a technician come onsite to do the update. In general, the user can perform the update without issue. -Though always make a backup beforehand to be safe. You can use switches on the selector levers to auto sense gear ranges or use M-functions and/or aux keys to simply inform the control what range it is in.

    The PLC is a plain text file that can be modified with any text editor. The basic PLC is very well commented so it's easy to see where the changes need to be made. The PLC language itself is very "C" like: If LowRangeInput && !MediumRangeInput && !HighRangeInput THEN SpindleRange_W = 1 etc...

    If we were to modify the PLC, you would incur fees. Our rates are $90/hr and we could probably do this in 1 hour over a Teamviewer connection to the control. Teamviewer allows us to log into an internet connected control remotely for troubleshooting and configuration purposes. The remote access is a HUGE advantage in troubleshooting. You can download Teamviewer (free for personal use) at TeamViewer – Remote Support, Remote Access, Service Desk, Online Collaboration and Meetings . Make SURE you download directly from teamviewer.com. If you just google it you'll end of with a ton of phishing sites.



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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Excellent Scott.
    I am familiar with and have Teamviewer. I agree, very useful tool for remote sessions. I will wait to get the lathe up and running, take a look at the control levers to see if its possible to fit micro switches, which seems to be the preferred method, otherwise programing aux keys might be the way to go if there are enough, otherwise M functions might be ok, but would have be be written into code. I assume there are examples of the M-code method in the user manual?

    As long as I can download the software, I'm sure I can take care of the software upgrades. I will most certainly back up the parameter files.

    I appreciate your quick responses. I'm looking forward to working with your Centroid control.

    I just watched your Youtube video on the All in one DC, nicely done and explained.
    Marty



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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Scott/Keith,
    Finally got the Bridgeport EZ Path here and up and running. Attached is the REPORT file. What I would like to do is modify the PLC to add the gear head speed selections and call each by an M code. Will place that Mcode in the initialization line before the speed is called. If you can give me an example of that, I would appreciate it. I was told when the VFD was at low speeds, the Z axis would move abruptly. I ran it today and could not replicate that problem.

    SO, I would like to modify the PLC first, again, an example would be great. Scott you mentioned I would have to add a number of lines in the PLC program. You also said you needed to review the report file. If you see anything odd in the report, let me know and I will clarify or check the machine. Thank you gentlemen!

    By the way, my first time at a Centroid control and was able to figure the basics out in short order. :-)

    Marty

    Attached Files Attached Files


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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty_Escarcega View Post
    Scott/Keith,
    Finally got the Bridgeport EZ Path here and up and running. Attached is the REPORT file. What I would like to do is modify the PLC to add the gear head speed selections and call each by an M code. Will place that Mcode in the initialization line before the speed is called. If you can give me an example of that, I would appreciate it. I was told when the VFD was at low speeds, the Z axis would move abruptly. I ran it today and could not replicate that problem.

    SO, I would like to modify the PLC first, again, an example would be great. Scott you mentioned I would have to add a number of lines in the PLC program. You also said you needed to review the report file. If you see anything odd in the report, let me know and I will clarify or check the machine. Thank you gentlemen!

    By the way, my first time at a Centroid control and was able to figure the basics out in short order. :-)

    Marty
    Hi Marty,

    You attached the report.txt file, We need the report.zip. When sending or posting a report, please always attach the report.zip.

    I was able to determine the control serial number from the information in the report.txt and pulled an old report from 2011. The original PLC had been modified to use the Aux1, Aux2 & Aux3 keys for Low, Med, High ranges respectively. In the attached file, I modified the PLC to accept both the aux keys and M41, M42 and M43 for low, med and high ranges respectively.

    Simply unzip the attached files to c:\cnct, overwriting the existing files when prompted and then restart.

    PS You should update the control software. If you have internet access at the control, call us and we'll walk you through it.

    Attached Files Attached Files


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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Good morning Scott,
    Sorry about that, attached is the zip file for your review. I don't have a cable long enough to make it to the control, though I believe you or Keith gave directions in upgrading the software and not overwriting the parameters. I have done a back up just in case and will upgrade the software. I guess the head scratcher for me is there are many more speed selections on the gear head. I also heard from the previous owner, that if the TECO VFD is commanded to a very low speed (below 300rpm), an axis will abruptly start moving. I was also told that he changed something in the parameters to prevent the control from running those low speeds. I'm trying to recreate that problem so that I can fix it. I was going to check grounds etc. I would assume the control cable shield from the VFD to the AIO DC should be grounded at the AIO DC and not the VFD correct? If easier to email me directly martyDOTescarcegaATgmailDOTcom, or we can solve it hear for the benefit of other users OR if you prefer, I could use the AJAX forum. Just let me know.
    Thanks again for such prompt replies and your assistance Scott.
    Marty

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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Scott,
    I wanted to report back. I was able to get the software updated in the control per your instructions. The file you supplied worked wonderfully once I knew you had also fixed the PLC to use the carriage handwheels. I had suspected that based on what the handheld MPG was doing, with the newest report.zip Mario confirmed it and let me know what I needed to configure in the parameters, I figured out my encoder counts and reconnected them. They seem to work great! All in all a very successful day with great support from Centroid. Next I need to look at how you configured the AUX buttons for the speeds. I need to understand what ranges each Aux button corresponds to. I think I also need to work on the TECO VFD. Its min range has been set to 20hz. There was problem reported by the previous owner that if run below this, I'm told the axis while running a program will move abruptly or speed up. I have not yet witnessed the issue so I can't say clearly what is happening. I will set the VFD min range to say 5 hz and then try a few things.

    I've read the installation manual, but didn't see where it is explained how to connect and "tune" a VFD so that at the correct voltage, the RPM is correct. I'll dig into that some more tomorrow. I will say the installation manual for the All In One DC seems well written, but I think one at least needs some good electrical and basic electronics background in order to do a basic install of the All in One DC.

    Again, thanks to you, Keith and Mario, great responsive support.
    Marty



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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Quote Originally Posted by ajaxscott View Post
    Hi Marty,

    You attached the report.txt file, We need the report.zip. When sending or posting a report, please always attach the report.zip.

    I was able to determine the control serial number from the information in the report.txt and pulled an old report from 2011. The original PLC had been modified to use the Aux1, Aux2 & Aux3 keys for Low, Med, High ranges respectively. In the attached file, I modified the PLC to accept both the aux keys and M41, M42 and M43 for low, med and high ranges respectively.

    Simply unzip the attached files to c:\cnct, overwriting the existing files when prompted and then restart.

    PS You should update the control software. If you have internet access at the control, call us and we'll walk you through it.
    Scott,
    How do I determine which AUX/M code belongs to what spindle speed range? Can you explain how you set it up for a machine with several spindle speeds?
    The EZ Path has a large selection of spindle speeds.

    Thanks,
    Marty



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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty_Escarcega View Post
    Scott,
    How do I determine which AUX/M code belongs to what spindle speed range? Can you explain how you set it up for a machine with several spindle speeds?
    The EZ Path has a large selection of spindle speeds.

    Thanks,
    Marty
    Marty,

    As currently written:

    Aux1 & M41 = Low range
    The low range ratio is defined in parm 65. ex: A setting of .1 indicates that the spindle motor rotates 10 times for each revolution of the spindle.

    Aux2 & M42 = Med range
    The med range ratio is defined in parm 66.

    Aux3 & M43 = High range
    There is no ratio parm for high range. It is assumed to be 1:1. (Technically speaking, there is more to it than that but for the time being, leave it at 1:1 so you can do threading etc...)

    Your I/O is currently completely consumed. In order to add additional input for gear range detect you will need to expand your hardware I/O ($395 16IN/16OUT) or re-assign existing I/O.



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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Thanks Scott.
    When you say I/O is consumed, you mean hardware I/O correct? If one just wanted to do it more ranges with M codes or the other Aux buttons, this is doable but the PLC would need to be modified? I don't see the practicality in doing it with hardwired switch inputs on this machine.

    Typically, how is this handled when a user has a multiple range gear head machine? Picks 3 ranges and the 3 overlap each other, and the control through the VFD covers the entire machine speed range?



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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Actually, your PLC program uses "high mid" range instead of "low mid" range, so the ratio associated with M42 (and formerly with Aux2) would be in Parameter 67, not Parameter 66.

    Also, you will need to modify the M41, M42 and M43 macros slightly if you still want to be able to use the Aux keys to select range even after using one or more of the M functions.

    Yes, you would typically pick three or four ranges you want to use, and set those up in Parameter 65-67. There is no need to shift among 12 or more different gear ranges when you have a variable-frequency spindle drive.

    Hard-wired range-detect inputs are not required, but they are convenient because you don't have to remember to push an Aux key or run an M function to match each time you shift the gear lever.

    If you want to use four ranges instead of three, then you would need a couple minor modifications to your PLC program, around lines 1790-1800. That section, which sets and then uses SpindleRange_W values from 1 through 4, has standard 4-range support.

    If you wanted to use more than four ranges, then you would need to define your own set of ratio parameters, separate from or in addition to P65 - P67 (e.g. using parameters in the 900-series), and define what M functions or Aux keys you wanted to select those ranges. But that really shouldn't be necessary.

    Finally, the values in P65 - P67 are not the ratio of lower-range spindle speeds to the spindle motor; they are the ratio of the lower-range spindle speeds to the high-range speed. We generally don't know or care exactly how fast the motor is turning. Threading will work fine in any and every range, as long as your spindle encoder is belted 1:1 to the back of the spindle (and not mounted on the motor).



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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Quote Originally Posted by cncsnw View Post
    Actually, your PLC program uses "high mid" range instead of "low mid" range, so the ratio associated with M42 (and formerly with Aux2) would be in Parameter 67, not Parameter 66.

    Also, you will need to modify the M41, M42 and M43 macros slightly if you still want to be able to use the Aux keys to select range even after using one or more of the M functions.

    Yes, you would typically pick three or four ranges you want to use, and set those up in Parameter 65-67. There is no need to shift among 12 or more different gear ranges when you have a variable-frequency spindle drive.

    Hard-wired range-detect inputs are not required, but they are convenient because you don't have to remember to push an Aux key or run an M function to match each time you shift the gear lever.

    If you want to use four ranges instead of three, then you would need a couple minor modifications to your PLC program, around lines 1790-1800. That section, which sets and then uses SpindleRange_W values from 1 through 4, has standard 4-range support.

    If you wanted to use more than four ranges, then you would need to define your own set of ratio parameters, separate from or in addition to P65 - P67 (e.g. using parameters in the 900-series), and define what M functions or Aux keys you wanted to select those ranges. But that really shouldn't be necessary.

    Finally, the values in P65 - P67 are not the ratio of lower-range spindle speeds to the spindle motor; they are the ratio of the lower-range spindle speeds to the high-range speed. We generally don't know or care exactly how fast the motor is turning. Threading will work fine in any and every range, as long as your spindle encoder is belted 1:1 to the back of the spindle (and not mounted on the motor).


    Oh my head hurts ;-) CNCSW, are you suggesting that the work that Scott did may need some tweaking?? I just want to keep this simple, reliable, and would really like to understand how its programmed and how the control looks at the settings.. Attached is a picture of the headstock. Which 3 ranges would you choose to be the most flexible, and how would you go about setting them up in the control. There is no Low speed. The original 2 speed motor was replaced with a single speed motor. Yes, there is a 1:1 encoder on the spindle. Assume as Scott set them up:

    Aux1 & M41 = Low range
    The low range ratio is defined in parm 65. ex: A setting of .1 indicates that the spindle motor rotates 10 times for each revolution of the spindle.

    Aux2 & M42 = Med range
    The med range ratio is defined in parm 66.

    Aux3 & M43 = High range
    There is no ratio parm for high range. It is assumed to be 1:1. (Technically speaking, there is more to it than that but for the time being, leave it at 1:1 so you can do threading etc...)

    Also attached is the latest report file from today.

    Thanks, I appreciate the input and the learning experience.
    Marty

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection-headstock-jpg  
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    Default Re: Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

    Quote Originally Posted by Marty_Escarcega View Post
    Oh my head hurts ;-) CNCSW, are you suggesting that the work that Scott did may need some tweaking?? I just want to keep this simple, reliable, and would really like to understand how its programmed and how the control looks at the settings.. Attached is a picture of the headstock. Which 3 ranges would you choose to be the most flexible, and how would you go about setting them up in the control. There is no Low speed. The original 2 speed motor was replaced with a single speed motor. Yes, there is a 1:1 encoder on the spindle. Assume as Scott set them up:

    Aux1 & M41 = Low range
    The low range ratio is defined in parm 65. ex: A setting of .1 indicates that the spindle motor rotates 10 times for each revolution of the spindle.

    Aux2 & M42 = Med range
    The med range ratio is defined in parm 66.

    Aux3 & M43 = High range
    There is no ratio parm for high range. It is assumed to be 1:1. (Technically speaking, there is more to it than that but for the time being, leave it at 1:1 so you can do threading etc...)

    Also attached is the latest report file from today.

    Thanks, I appreciate the input and the learning experience.
    Marty
    Marty,

    Marc was correct, I had mapped Med range to the "High Mid" parm (p67) rather than the "Low Mid" I've corrected that in the attached program. I also added logic to clear the m function bits when an aux key is pressed to indicate a gear range change. The original comments now hold true:

    Aux1 & M41 = Low range
    The low range ratio is defined in parm 65. ex: A setting of .1 indicates that the spindle motor rotates 10 times for each revolution of the spindle.

    Aux2 & M42 = Med range
    The med range ratio is defined in parm 66.

    Aux3 & M43 = High range
    There is no ratio parm for high range. It is assumed to be 1:1. (Technically speaking, there is more to it than that but for the time being, leave it at 1:1 so you can do threading etc...)

    Regarding what mechanical ranges you should be using? I can't answer that. That's determined by your machine, your application, your tooling etc...



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