Centroid T400 for lathe and gear head speed selection

[Marty_Escarcega]

Marty,

Marc was correct, I had mapped Med range to the "High Mid" parm (p67) rather than the "Low Mid" I've corrected that in the attached program. I also added logic to clear the m function bits when an aux key is pressed to indicate a gear range change. The original comments now hold true:

Aux1 & M41 = Low range
The low range ratio is defined in parm 65. ex: A setting of .1 indicates that the spindle motor rotates 10 times for each revolution of the spindle.

Aux2 & M42 = Med range
The med range ratio is defined in parm 66.

Aux3 & M43 = High range
There is no ratio parm for high range. It is assumed to be 1:1. (Technically speaking, there is more to it than that but for the time being, leave it at 1:1 so you can do threading etc...)

Regarding what mechanical ranges you should be using? I can't answer that. That's determined by your machine, your application, your tooling etc...

Good morning Scott, you were up early, I surely didn't expect you to work on it or look at this until business hours. I do appreciate it. That said, I think you forgot the attachment.

So AUX 1 and AUX 2 are the ones I may change the settings in the parameter, (65 & 66) based on the gear range and its ratio I select. Leave Aux 3 alone which is assumed to be 1:1
I understand your position on the machine and the selection/decision a user makes. Since I can change the values in 65 & 66, then I can experiment with the ratios and gear selections. In low speed, I would rather have the motor running fast enough for the fan to keep it cool.

Thank you to Marc as well for picking up on the issue. I appreciate your chiming in. I enjoy the control work and this is my first experience with Centroid. I see it is a very powerful control provided you understand it and what it can do. If you have any other comments about this issue or if you noted anything in the report file that caught your attention, feel free to mention it.

Scott, I'll look for the attachment after you've had a cup of coffee and are back to work. :-)

I hope you both have a great day!
Marty

[diycncscott]

Good morning Scott, you were up early, I surely didn't expect you to work on it or look at this until business hours. I do appreciate it. That said, I think you forgot the attachment.

So AUX 1 and AUX 2 are the ones I may change the settings in the parameter, (65 & 66) based on the gear range and its ratio I select. Leave Aux 3 alone which is assumed to be 1:1
I understand your position on the machine and the selection/decision a user makes. Since I can change the values in 65 & 66, then I can experiment with the ratios and gear selections. In low speed, I would rather have the motor running fast enough for the fan to keep it cool.

Thank you to Marc as well for picking up on the issue. I appreciate your chiming in. I enjoy the control work and this is my first experience with Centroid. I see it is a very powerful control provided you understand it and what it can do. If you have any other comments about this issue or if you noted anything in the report file that caught your attention, feel free to mention it.

Scott, I'll look for the attachment after you've had a cup of coffee and are back to work. :-)

I hope you both have a great day!
Marty

Here you go

[cnckeith]

most modern engine lathes with variable spindle speed spindle motors that are controlled with a VFD the the CNC control via analog output... typically will have three gear ranges. this is all you will need... a low, med and high range to do all types of lathe work.. the inverter (VFD) and the controller will give you all the different RPM's (CSS) needed inside any given gear range. the gear ranges are for toque multiplication. so hooking up any other gear ranges is not necessary.

[Marty_Escarcega]

most modern engine lathes with variable spindle speed spindle motors that are controlled with a VFD the the CNC control via analog output... typically will have three gear ranges. this is all you will need... a low, med and high range to do all types of lathe work.. the inverter (VFD) and the controller will give you all the different RPM's (CSS) needed inside any given gear range. the gear ranges are for toque multiplication. so hooking up any other gear ranges is not necessary.

Hi Keith, completely understand and agree with you. VFD control is more typical. I believe not too much longer after this EZ Path was out, a newer model came out and that's how it was controlled.
I was working with it this morning, and noted the erratic behaviour the previous owner had been plagued with. When it runs a program, it runs it fine. When you hit Cycle Start, the X axis travels all the way back and it wasn't commanded to in the program. Here are a couple of videos (note, I had not installed Scott's fix for spindle speed control as of yet) but wanted you all to see the oddity that is happening
Part 1:


Part 2 (in this video, the program ran fine the first 2 tries, but watch the X axis on the 3, it comes all the way back uncommanded about 2:00 in the video):


I am now going to take Scott's latest files and copy them into the control. I will then try to repeat on Aux 3 which should be 1:1.

Marty

:

[Marty_Escarcega]

This gets better? All I did was go to the MDI, entered M03 S750, spindle started up find and was within 50 rpm, but I noted on the DRO the X axis was moving, I looked at the X axis and sure enough it was moving. What caused this? Scotts changes were implemented, latest Report.zip attached for reference.
I caught a video of it:


I'm sorry for the trouble guys, but I sure appreciate the advice and direction to go...
Marty

[cncsnw]

Does it stop if you turn off the MPG handwheels (by pressing the yellow handwheel button on the jog panel so the LED turns off)?

If so, then your spindle motor is probably inducing noise on the X handwheel encoder cable.

[cnckeith]

the quadrature error message is most always bad encoder wiring.. the usual encoder wiring mistakes are no shielding or improper shielding, and no twisted pair..
here is a quick explanation...the shielding for the encoder cable is actually a drain.. a drain wire that touches the aluminum shield that wraps the encoder twisted pair wires.. that drain wire.. "drains" any electromagnetic fields to ground and stops them from getting into the encoder signal wires.
twisted pair wire for each encoder signal channel pair also cancels out unwanted noise. (think two waves out of phase that cancel each other out, like a set of bose headphones for encoder wires.).
(if all the wiring is good..then sometimes quad error message is a bad encoder as well, but its more likely improper wiring)

[Marty_Escarcega]

Does it stop if you turn off the MPG handwheels (by pressing the yellow handwheel button on the jog panel so the LED turns off)?

If so, then your spindle motor is probably inducing noise on the X handwheel encoder cable.

Marc, I'm playing grandparent this afternoon. I will try and recreate this in the morning. It would seem to me we would want MPG off when a program is running? (I would think automatically) I watched the video and at 7 seconds caught a glimpse that yes, the MPG was on. I'm going to test by moving the handwheel with MPG on while program is running. The handwheel encoders and x axis servo cables are in the cable drag back to the cabinet. I don't believe they cross paths. I appreciate the ideas and things to look for. It also just struck me that the display also had a distance to go number counting on it When the X axis was moving I believe. Why would there be a distance to go?

[Marty_Escarcega]

the quadrature error message is most always bad encoder wiring.. the usual encoder wiring mistakes are no shielding or improper shielding, and no twisted pair..
here is a quick explanation...the shielding for the encoder cable is actually a drain.. a drain wire that touches the aluminum shield that wraps the encoder twisted pair wires.. that drain wire.. "drains" any electromagnetic fields to ground and stops them from getting into the encoder signal wires.
twisted pair wire for each encoder signal channel pair also cancels out unwanted noise. (think two waves out of phase that cancel each other out, like a set of bose headphones for encoder wires.).
(if all the wiring is good..then sometimes quad error message is a bad encoder as well, but its more likely improper wiring)

Hi Keith,
In the past, I have used CAT6E stranded and shielded cable for encoder cable, grounding the shield on the DB connector on the controller end and leaving the encoder end free. Any shielded control cable I have grounded at one point, the service/chassis ground point and left the other end unattached and clipped to the jacket in order not to inadvertently created a ground loops. The cabinet was wired by Centroid and the axis motors were provided by Centroid. It was a complete package as far as I know. The only original encoders and their original cables were from the original EZ Path DX32 control, handwheels and spindle encoders. I'm willing to replace the encoders and the cables of we feel they may be suspect. I did note the handwheel encoder's drain wires were soldered to the DB9 shells. I believe the spindle encoder is as well but will check thoroughly tomorrow.

Doesn't it seem odd that after just calling M03 S750 that the X axis was moving and there was a distance to go in the DRO display? What was the control referencing? Any chance there may have been something in memory?

I'm going to try and recreate the issues in the morning. And then look over the wiring.

Any more thoughts on what to look for appreciated.
What does the control do if the speed range called doesn't match the programmed Aux button/Mcode?

Marty

[cncsnw]

Doesn't it seem odd that after just calling M03 S750 that the X axis was moving and there was a distance to go in the DRO display? What was the control referencing? Any chance there may have been something in memory?

For comparison, go to F3/MDI; don't start the spindle; and see if you can move the X axis with the electronic handwheel.

If you can, does the Distance-to-Go increase the farther you move from the starting point?

[cnckeith]

Marty, perform marc's tests for sure.

and here is another way to go.. a powerful support tool that we use for CNC support is a direct connection to the control thru the internet.. if you can get an internet connection to the control we can connect to it thru the internet and quickly find out the answers we need and with your help at the machine make changes and verify performance. I carry a 150' Ethernet cable in my truck for just such occasions.. and when that doesn't work.. i use a cell based wifi hot spot and a usb wifi stick to get an internet connection to the control for factory direct support that solves issues quickly!

[Marty_Escarcega]

Today was a good day. I pulled the TECO CV7300 out of the Centroid cabinet, made up a control cable to go from the All In One DC control to the VFD to control it, with a CAT6E Stranded and shielded cable. Properly grounding the motor to the service entry ground. No quadrature errors (someone previous to me had disabled the notifications, and faults from those notifications) Scott had re-enabled them. The faults were very repeatable and frequent. All I had to do was command a Spindle Speed in MDI and it would fault. I also noted the ethernet patch cable from the computer to AIO DC was not shielded. I had one and replaced it. With the VFD wired up and on the ground I did some testing. The encoder quadrature errors on X and the Spindle encoder seemed to go away. I tested all afternoon and could not get the errors. I put the VFD back in the control cabinet and did some more testing, no encoder quadrature errors.

Now, forgive the newbie question. I can't seem to calibrate the spindle on Aux 2 or Aux 3. AND I MAY BE DOING IT WRONG

I set the gearhead spindle speed to 750rpm, and Aux 1 on the console. I commanded S750 through the MDI. I played with Parameter 65 and settled on .635 which yielded almost 750 exactly. Yay

I thought I now knew how to calibrate Medium speed, which I chose to be 1500 on the gear head selection. At 1.0 in Parameter 66 the slowest I could get it down to was 1890RPM

Max speed or high range is 3000rpm on the gear head, AUX 1. I don't think I tinkered with this one much.

So, some guidance on how to calibrate the desired Spindle RPM to the commanded RPM from the control would muchly be appreciated.

Latest Report.zip attached

All in all it was a good day. Hopefully I will clean up the cabling tomorrow and see if the axis quadrature errors stay away.

[cncsnw]

You need to start in high range, setting the "Max spindle (high range)" value on the Control Configuration (F1 -> F3 -> F1) menu to correspond to the spindle RPM you get at the VFD's maximum output frequency.

Once you have the control configuration max speed for high range dialed in so that speeds in high range are accurate, then you set your low range ratios in Parameters 65 and either 66 or 67 so that speeds are correct in those ranges as well.

[Marty_Escarcega]

You need to start in high range, setting the "Max spindle (high range)" value on the Control Configuration (F1 -> F3 -> F1) menu to correspond to the spindle RPM you get at the VFD's maximum output frequency.

Once you have the control configuration max speed for high range dialed in so that speeds in high range are accurate, then you set your low range ratios in Parameters 65 and either 66 or 67 so that speeds are correct in those ranges as well.

Thank you Marc, I will do that this morning and let you know how I make out. I looked through the manuals and either missed it or couldn't find detailed information on setting up gear head or machines with multiple belt ratios. If you know off hand where it is, please let me know. I am going to take the time to thoroughly read the manuals as I anticipate doing more with the Centroid controls.

And thank you for supporting the Community with your knowledge and expertise. I personally really appreciate it.
Marty

[Marty_Escarcega]

Marty, perform marc's tests for sure.

and here is another way to go.. a powerful support tool that we use for CNC support is a direct connection to the control thru the internet.. if you can get an internet connection to the control we can connect to it thru the internet and quickly find out the answers we need and with your help at the machine make changes and verify performance. I carry a 150' Ethernet cable in my truck for just such occasions.. and when that doesn't work.. i use a cell based wifi hot spot and a usb wifi stick to get an internet connection to the control for factory direct support that solves issues quickly!

As a follow up. Scott and I did indeed to a remote login. I used a USB Wifi stick and plugged it into the control's USB port and configured Windows to access my network. Once done, I downloaded Teamviewer and installed it. Fired up Teamviewer and gave Scott the access code. Scott was able to log in, and see the control as if he were in front of it. We spoke over the phone through the process. With Scott's experience, he was able to look through the parameters and noted that someone had turned off some fault and reporting features that prevented the control from showing the axis quadrature errors. Once that was enabled, we did a quick test. I was able to jog the axis just fine, but when I went to command a spindle speeed, had an immediate and repetitive axis quadrature fault. I noted in the manual for testing purposes this can be disabled, but should be re-enabled once the control install is completed. Either someone neglected to do that or willfully turned them off. Scott also did a software update, he was able to send the file to my console and updated it. Scott and I were online perhaps 15-20 minutes. Cool stuff, and helped me toward resolving my issues.

[Marty_Escarcega]

You need to start in high range, setting the "Max spindle (high range)" value on the Control Configuration (F1 -> F3 -> F1) menu to correspond to the spindle RPM you get at the VFD's maximum output frequency.

Once you have the control configuration max speed for high range dialed in so that speeds in high range are accurate, then you set your low range ratios in Parameters 65 and either 66 or 67 so that speeds are correct in those ranges as well.

No Joy.

First some info on the lathe:
Motor is a WEG: 00718ET3E213TC-W22
Motor RPM is 1765 RPM

Gears currently chosen on the lathe (I think I might need/want the 4th for very low RPM@60hz):
High speed, assigned to AUX3=3000rpm on the name plate
Medium speed, assigned to AUX2=1500rpm on the name plate
Low speed, assigned to AUX1=750rpm on the name plate

VFD is a TECO CV7300. Low frequency setting currently=0, high frequency setting currently=60hz (was 120)

I set gear box to 750 rpm, low speed, (AUX1), when commanding S750, the control outputs 3.49VDC, and actual spindle rpm is 265 rpm (parm 65=.6350)
I set gear box to 1500 rpm, medium speed (AUX2) when commanding S1500, the control outputs 5.6VDC, and actual spindle rpm is 850 rpm (parm 66=.600)
I set gear box to 3000 rpm, high speed (AUX3), when commanding S3000, the control outputs 5.6VDC, and actual spindle rpm is 1680 rpm (parm=can't change)

I am measuring the analog voltage in parallel with the VFD with a Fluke DMM.
I understand we have to establish a baseline at high speed, but since in this case high speed is more than double the motor RPM, I think there is more to this. Or I may be overthinking it.

I hope this information helps you explain what is going on. I know something is not set right. Marc, I did make sure that max spindle speed is set to 3000rpm (Max on the gear box and high speed in Control Configuration, F1-F3-F1 and it was)

This neophyte is looking forward to hearing the wisdom from those in the know. For me its about learning the control and how to configure it more so than just getting a machine up and running to make parts.
Thanks guys....
Marty

[cncsnw]

Change Parameter 33 back to 1.0.

Parameter 33 is not needed in this situation, regardless of the ratio between your motor and spindle.

The situations where Parameter 33 is needed are so rare and esoteric they do not merit description here. Just set it back to 1.0 and try again to calibrate the high-range speed.

[Marty_Escarcega]

Change Parameter 33 back to 1.0.

Parameter 33 is not needed in this situation, regardless of the ratio between your motor and spindle.

The situations where Parameter 33 is needed are so rare and esoteric they do not merit description here. Just set it back to 1.0 and try again to calibrate the high-range speed.

I will do that first thing in the morning. Thanks again Marc. I will let you know how it goes.

Marty

[Marty_Escarcega]

I will do that first thing in the morning. Thanks again Marc. I will let you know how it goes.

Marty

No luck.
As previously mentioned
Motor is a 1765rpm motor
VFD is a Teco CV7300, low frequency set to 0, high frequency set to 60

On my Bridgeport, the 1500rpm range setting on the gear box is closest to 1:1 (AUX2)
The high setting or 3000rpm range requires the gearbox to multiply the motor rpm by about 1.75 to get it to 3000rpm (AUX3)

Control is set to max RPM of 3000
Problem is when commanding an M03 S3000, the control is not putting out the proper voltage to the VFD which should be near 10Volts (I have a Fluke DMM in parallel with the Control spindle output and the VFD to monitor the voltage)

I'd really like to understand how the control commands the voltage. What variables are at play. I still think something is not setup right in the software.

I surely appreciate everyone's efforts, if I am doing something wrong, I will gladly slap myself on everyone's behalf! :-)

Marty

[cnckeith]

Marty,
- if you haven't already, set the inverter to display Hertz while running. this is a good debug too. (along with the fluke meter on the analog output of the allin1dc) to quickly see what the inverter is outputting when you command the spindle to spin.

- make sure the spindle overide button on the operator panel is set to 100%

- verify that the analog output adjustment switches are set to the 0-10 vdc setting a per the install manual as well. (fyi.. the allin1dc can be set to output 0-10vdc, 0-5 vdc, +-10vdc or +-5vdc for the spindle control output via the dip switches on the allin1dc and the plc program).