[b4500@dtcc.edu]

Where on this earth is incontrovertible proof that WE (humans) are causing "global warming" or climate change?

I am going to take this apart piece by piece for you.

What we can agree on?

1.) Climate change is most definitively a more accurate term. I merely used the nomenclature previously specified in the forum title.

2.) Recent history (20 years or so) have been warmer than say the previous 20 years. (In areas where temperature has been recorded)

3.) A non-polluting, plentiful, renewable energy source would be ideal and should be researched. (But as with all research, there may not be a realistic tangible success based on current levels of technology and the lack of funding for said research, that said, I encourage everyone to try)

What do I take issue with?

1.) The website, you cite, has an agenda. The article does use good sources; however, they use a narrow scope of focus to make a broad claim.

2.) The relevance of your education (not barring a degree with practical experience in environmental science), the amount of money you "could" make(absurd by the way, if you knew my hourly contract rate) and the ability to write an engineering paper (I must admit I didn’t read) has no bearing on your ability or qualifications to debate this issue. I personally don't care if you are a rocket scientist. Stick to the facts and only the facts and we will get along famously.

3.) Lack of continuity and focus:
In order to keep this debate focused (global warming and or climate change); please refrain from going off on tangents (e.g. hobbies, non-relevant publications, general ranting, etc.).

It also makes an easier read with less fluff to sort through.

4.) Making the following statement;

"I have no doubt human-activity-induced global warming is occurring right now - in fact I don't see how it could be avoided given the huge amount of greenhouse gases we're emitting."

This is a whopper! Let me introduce you "to my little friend" doubt!

I am going to ask you read this page. I am going to preface this article by telling you, that what you are going to read was generated by an agenda driven group, however, the article is well written and sites scientific journals and leading scientists, and I couldn't say it any better than they do (with out considerable effort). I am only asking that you take under consideration the facts of the article; not the conclusions drawn.

http://bruderheim-rea.ca/warming6.htm

If this does not blow a huge hole in your rhetoric, please let me know and I will be happy to provide more facts to do so.

5.) "...I also have learned, through my renewable energy interest, to see past the cover some individuals put up to confuse or manipulate me."

Facts are not confusing. The only cover being put up here is in your head. I am not trying to manipulate you. It is not a big conspiracy. Now look at my pocket watch... your getting sleepy.... global warming does not exist..... When you awake you will be a Liberal Environmental Wacko.... oh damn too late.

"A bit of levity never hurt any debate." This is a direct quote from the guy being a Jerk.

To Arthur,
I sincerely wish you well. It sounds like you are involved in many wonderful things and I hope they bring you joy. My objective is that this debate will be informative, and if at the conclusion you still hold your misguided views, so be it. I will respectfully agree to disagree. All I ask is that you keep an open mind and focus on the facts, even when these facts are directly in opposition to your beliefs.

To all others,
It is obvious that Arthur is an educated and logical person, however, I would like to point out that even logical and learned people are susceptible to propaganda. Understand that Arthur and I probably are not too far off from one another ideologically (so far). We just disagree on what is fact and what is fiction.

There is no shame in admitting; the world is round and that the sun is the center of our solar system. Sooner or later the truth will emerge. I hope this debate will help you find your truth.

John